Market to Market: Feeding Flexitarians And The World With Peas - Christine Lewingtong Podcast

Paul Yeager: Hi everybody. I’m Paul Yeager This is the MtoM Show podcast, a production of Iowa PBS and the Market to Market TV show. We talk a lot about farmers and productions and entrepreneurship or at least we have in the past, and we’re going to continue that discussion today. But this time, we are going to go into Canada, because we’re going to talk to the CEO of PIP International. That’s Christine Lewington, she’s going to talk to us from Alberta. We are going to be talking about peace and sustainability. The products that they produce the innovations that she has done the competition, and putting it in quotes for those of you listening with livestock doesn’t see it as competition. Maybe I just ruined the spoiler. But then we also talk about the acreage battle that goes on everywhere and how pieces fit into the plan for many farmers, both the growth for her and others across the world. So that is what we’re going to talk about today a little bit of innovation in food products. This is the MTM Show podcast. If you have feedback for me, send it in an email at Paul.Yeager@IowaPBS.ORG. Big thanks to Russ for his great ideas. And if you have ideas, send them to me always look forward to reading them. Enjoy this episode of the podcast. Christine, you’re in Canada you have to in Alberta. So tell you know us Americans. We don’t always know our geography very well. What city are you in?

Christine Lewington: So I’m in Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. I’m about two hours south of Calgary. So if you’ve heard of the the largest stampede on earth that’s in Calgary or if you know about, I am about three hours south of Bath. But for the Americans we are 45 minutes north of the Montana border. Yeah, they’re so right. Right snuggled up by your guys’s border there.

Paul Yeager: Are you native to the area where you’re working?

Christine Lewington: I sure am. Yeah, I was born and raised. I was born in Calgary but raised down in southern Alberta.

Paul Yeager: What what was home life? Like? Were you a I always say farm kid or manufacturing in the background entrepreneurship. What’s your background?

Christine Lewington: No, actually, I grew up in a small town outside of Lethbridge 2500 people. So rural communities. Lethbridge is only 100,000 people. And then you go to Calgary, and it’s two or 3 million. So it is very rural. And I would say, you know, you grew up with the bus kids from the farms and the kids that walk to school. So very rural. I’ve been on a farm all my life. I’ve lived on farms, I’ve driven, you know, tractors and combines, I’ve read horses, I’ve done cattle runs, you know, so definitely an ag background. My family though growing up, my mom worked in banking, and my dad was an electrician, so in the trades. And so, you know, not entrepreneurs. But when I grew up, I I got the bug for entrepreneurship. When I was 10 years old. I started babysitting. And I went wow. And then I actually had a couple of friends to babysit for me. And I found out how to multiply myself at 10 years old. So yeah, about 12 years old, my mom says that I bought all my clothes from 12 years old on

Paul Yeager: so don’t make it a note. I’m making a note for my 13 year old that he can do that. Actually, no, he has a little bit of that spirit. I’m always intrigued by the entrepreneurial spirit. So babysitting was the first entry what what was it next?

Christine Lewington: babysitting. And then I I started doing events. So in high school, I played on the sports teams and I was on the honor roll that kind of fun stuff. But then people would have me do the events. So you know, prom and everything. And then I was like, Oh, this is kind of cool. So a couple of people said, Hey, will you do an event for me? So then I’m like, Oh, I can charge for that. So that I kind of went into that. And then I decided I went to school in the United States when school on a volleyball scholarship, and decided that five foot four wasn’t going to make a lot of money doing that. And so I gave up my scholarship and went on an academic and showed up at school because I opened the book up and said, I am really good at math, math, math, chemistry, physics, and I show up and I’m in the engineering program. And I actually don’t think I even knew an engineer at that time. And so I got an engineering degree. And I did the math on it and figured that if I could finish my engineering degree in three years, not four, I’d save a year and I get into the workforce faster. So I finished my engineering degree in three years, and then moved back to Canada and started a family got married, started a family. And throughout the time of being a mom, I was stay at home. I go back and forth and I did some consulting work with my engineering. And I’ve only had a what you’d call a job job once in my life,

Paul Yeager: and what would you call your job job then, of all of these things that you just mentioned, nothing sounds like work. It sounds like you’ve enjoyed everything you’ve done.

Christine Lewington: I have enjoyed almost everything I’ve done, I will say I have to back up. At one point, I worked in a law office for three weeks as a secretary, Office admin, because they needed some help. And I lasted three weeks, I self selected very quickly. There was not enough creativity in that in that mindset. And at the time, I didn’t know that that’s why it felt suffocating to me. So raising kids and having the flexibility to be an entrepreneur was what I wanted. So I worked when I could, so if I wanted to work at two o’clock in the morning, I worked at two o’clock in the morning, and I could charge for that, right. So I took my engineering and started a consulting company, but consulting really, I wasn’t consulting, I was actually in their businesses. And I, I’d say I cut my teeth at PepsiCo foods, and I worked there for over a decade. And that was very sorry about that. That was very enlightening. They gave me some of the broadest experience anybody could have ever asked for, as well as being an entrepreneur. So you know, I invoiced them, I learned the business side of things. Meanwhile, being in a large corporation, I had systems and processes and all those things that I was exposed to, and they would come to me and say, Christine, we have this problem, tell us what it will cost to fix. So they allowed They fed me my curiosity factor and my innovation factor in how to be that way. And at the same time, they turned around, and if I gave them a business plan, and a performance and ROI, they would give me money. And that was fantastic to do that. Because it spoiled me in a sense. With my engineering degree. I didn’t go into an engineering firm, and become expert at, you know, one kind of engineering. at PepsiCo, we did everything from buildings to preheat to innovation on water and recovery and how like, it was, it was phenomenal. So it, it built that out. And then after 10 years, I I launched out, I spread my wings a little bit more and started doing work and consulting for some of the other ag food processing facilities around. So in my area, we have 120 food processors. And it’s you know, if you think about how many people live here that that’s that is what we do here. And so I never went into the oil and gas Alberta is known for their oil and gas, I stayed south. And I just continued to learn. So I you know, worked with Parmalat, that’s yogurts, I went to you know, black velvet, they do whiskies and so all the different food and beverage areas I worked in and started leaning towards the sustainability and how to do things, not just Lean Six Sigma. But at one point facility that I worked in, and the capital projects, we are the most automated facility in North America, this little food plant, I think we held that title for about a year and a half. And then one of the bigger plants in that corporation became more automated because you know, when want the little plant in Sonoma, yeah, to show up. So we named our robots Larry, Moe and curly. And I mean, we had a lot of fun with it. But I think that’s that’s where has really paved my pathway on the entrepreneurship and the Hard Knocks of you have to learn real business. You know, you can be an entrepreneur, but you have to know how to integrate and act and work with your business. And that’s right now what I’m having to do.

Paul Yeager: And you part of that, too, is understanding where there is a market where there is a need and where there is opportunity and plant based food, I think checks all three of those right now. If if the pandemic taught us anything is we all want to either figure out where our food comes from, and know how it’s done. Was that your window in?

Christine Lewington: my window in started about a few years ago, I was approached by a couple of other you know, Project guys at that I worked with and said, Hey, let’s get into this plant based because the big beyond meet IPO had just gone off. And one of them had actually bought stock for three bucks, and it went to whatever it was with the entry stock. He made a bunch of money and said let’s do this ourselves. And so we all threw $165,000 into a pot and the government matched it because Alberta has a lot of government grants and funding. And I said as long as we have the best technology. And so I went on a mission and found a lab skill, innovative technology to extract protein from peas. And at the same time as the market is moving and growing on the plant based front. It started to check all those boxes for me personally. In 2006 I was in Panama And I saw children swimming in the sewer, drinking sewer water and washing their clothes, their moms are beside them. And I was I couldn’t, I couldn’t fathom that this is the way Is this our society like is this, okay? And I’ve made a commitment to myself at that time that I’m going to do something about this. At some point in my life, I’m going to do something about this. And I’ve never forgot that. And as we, as I was working with my partners, and building out the technology base, I realized this is my tool to get to where I want to be adding back to the world by doing the best tasting protein in the world. It tastes great, it functions great. We make ice cream and creamer. We’re doing the craziest stuff, I have no idea you could do with pea protein. To be fair, I thought it was a protein shake way back when. But using that and, and doing it in a way that it’s never been done. The way we’re like my goal is I was just in Vegas on the weekend for the CES conference, my mind was blown, spoke with some innovators there. And my goal is in five years to have my facility be operated through hydrogen, green hydrogen, we’re building a 70 megawatt solar farm, right on our land right beside us. So taking the innovations to how we’re doing it. And I’ve also then gone all the way back to that raw supply, like you said, if COVID has taught us anything, where does our food come from? So my main partners manette farms for the raw supply, and they have 360,000 acres. And we’ve already launched with the government a trade, how to trace our, our piece. Now if you can imagine how many peas come off of an acre of land? How do you trace that little pea and tell me that that’s the pea that went into this cup of pea protein? I don’t think we’re there yet. But we need to look at things differently instead of why aren’t we like, why aren’t we doing this? We’ll find out why we’re not, instead of how can we do this. And that’s what I’ve surrounded myself with is the can do is nothing’s impossible. It’s all possible. And, you know, being able to take that plant based, I guess the trajectory of it, and allow that to be the uplift. And it was funny, my operations director just come and talk to me. And I’m like, we just got another order. Like, hi. Like, I don’t think we can move fast enough. I really don’t. And it I did have a call from someone down in the States, Boise, Idaho. And she has a small plant based company. She called me last week. And she wanted to know if she could buy 500 kilograms. And I said, sure, like, so we’re working through and she got quite emotional, because no one allows the small guys to get into the market, because the big guys buy it all out. I’ve had three offers to buy all my product. And as an entrepreneur, you should, you know, maybe that’s a high five, but what it’s not going to do is allow me to grow and to allow those kinds of entrepreneurs to get in. So as long as I can stay true to that, you know, I keep moving and progressing and keeping the lights on this plant based, it’s not a trend anymore, it is going to be the way it’s going. And us being able to impact that in a positive social way. I think we’re going to be able to make a big dent in the way people see processing and where they get their food from.

Paul Yeager: Do you think that this message is received more in your home country than it is in other countries? I mean, I think of Europe having discussions about sustainability and food, then I think at the United States, but then I hear what you’re saying about going in Canada, you were involved with PepsiCo, a global corporation. What was their what what did you learn from them about understanding countries and what their desires are? Or do us to see this as an opportunity period, it doesn’t matter where the border is?

Christine Lewington: It’s an opportunity period, no matter where the border is. I will say the number one it’s very clear to me, Europe is the most awake. By far the most awake. If I have 100 requests, I would say 70 of are from Europe right now. I’d say 25 are from the United States and five are from everywhere else. Although Korea is coming up, South Korea is coming up fast and hard because they have all of their protein plant protein is soy. And so they’re trying to find an alternative to the soy. And they haven’t been able to find a clean, tasty and high functioning protein until now. So there is no borders. PepsiCo, they taught me more than I can ever I mean, I could feel books of what they taught me and they don’t see borders. They truly don’t. And they tried to make themselves as a global corporation. And but being able to be regionalised as well. That’s one thing that they did very, very well. They saw they can See, so in southern Alberta, we might like barbecued, you know, Lay’s potato chips. But barbecue Lay’s potato chips won’t sell in the middle of Tokyo, you know, they are very regionalised. So they would respect where they were at. And yeah, for sales and all that, but how to push it. But it also taught you to recognize culture around the world, and how to impact that. So, so many learnings from PepsiCo and how to see it is there are no borders, you know, I just had, how much to ship it to such and such a place in Europe. And I said, it’s just cost. We don’t we don’t make any money on that. So it’s exports, whatever, we don’t make any money on that. They’re like, really, you know, so we just want to get our protein out there.

Paul Yeager: Do you see? Well, I guess first of all, go back. You mentioned your COO, your operations person, how many, what’s your staff like right now on the business side before you get into processing?

Christine Lewington: So right now we have we’re commissioning our small processing facility. So over the last year, in less than 12 months, I purchased a bankrupt brewery that was a craft brewery midsize scale brewery, so it has a restaurant in the front and they they process beer in the back. It was in bankruptcy, I purchased it. And so in less than a year, we’ve converted it to a pea processing what fractionation facility. And so we are the largest, fully continuous operational processing facility at this scale. Because we’ve found an innovative technology that I licensed to commercialize. So I didn’t invent, you know, two or three little pieces. But I’m commercializing it. So if it takes 10 steps to make a pea protein, I licensed three, four and five. And we’ve had to figure out 1-2-6-7-8-9-10. So that’s what we’re doing here at this pilot facility. For the pilot facility, I can produce over 1000 metric ton a year, most pilot facilities can’t do that. It’s more like the 200. And when I first started, I bought 20 acres of land, we fully engineered the large facility. And I went time out, we need to seed the market with our great protein, because companies want hundreds of metrics of tons first, before they give you a purchase orders for 1000s of metric tons. And there’s a whole bunch of other reasons in there. But that was the big reason, you know, when you go for a $250 million loan at the bank to build a big facility. And I’m in Greenfield. They’re like, where’s your purchase orders? So the demand and the need is one sticking point that I like to talk to people about there is a need for clean tasting protein. But is there a demand for it? Could you get a purchase order for it tomorrow? That’s a much different conversation. Because a lot of the companies out there have had to take our protein, we started with a company last August. And they are going to commercialize in February through across the United States. And that’s very, very exciting for us. But it’s taken us that long. And we’ve had to be able to get them not, you know, 25 kgs, we’re supplying them 60 metric ton of month, just to do regional testing, to get it ready for 1000s of metric tons. So it is it is a much more strategic step process to get to where I want to be than I had imagined it would be.

Paul Yeager: Because it sounds like some it sounds like some people around you wanted to run but you’re like, No, no, no, we got to take the stairs. Because if we don’t have, I’m fascinated by what you said there just a minute ago, that you have to have. You have to see the field. I mean, it’s it’s it’s an exit to see the market, you have to basically tell people that you’re gonna want this product, and then they’re gonna go, I want this product. And you’re gonna be Well, here we are, we’re ready to help. I mean right now, am I getting happy?

Christine Lewington: That’s all right. That’s so right. We went to my team and I we went to the future food tech in New York, in the middle of June. And we, you know, we’re a startup. So you know, I tried to keep my costs and I said, Well, how can we participate and use a $47,000 and all these things and they say, Well, you can sponsor a coffee break. I said, Okay, we’re gonna sponsor coffee, the PIP way. So at the coffee break, we went there we went a day before we we actually rented one of their conference rooms, and we got all ready. And we set out a big buffet table. And we had cheese dip made from our pea protein. We had protein shakes, we had fudge, we have a pea protein fudge. It’s a greatest vegan budget ever taste. So we had all these things. And so we came out at Coffee time. And at quarter after 12 One of the event, people came to me and said, Christine, you wrote you guys really need to move and I said but we get the whole half an hour for coffee. She has no we have to set up for lunch. And what that taught me was is even again, you have you have to prove it people they call the second moment of truth. People will buy your product, any product out there for you know flashy marketing or you know, a cause or reason they Very few will buy it the second time if it doesn’t taste good. Right? And, and this is the plague, I believe in the plant based space, we want our iconic brands to taste exactly the same, but made a completely different way. So consumers, I’m a consumer, I understand that. And I’ve had some strange taste testings, you know, over the last few years. And that is the thing is that we have to see the market, we have to prove that what we’re saying is right, and that is one of the things that PIP has done even when we raise money. We’re evidence based. We don’t say we’re going to do it. Trust us, we will. And then maybe we will, we actually have gone and done it, and then said, See, look what we’re doing. Now we’re going the next step. So this step based approach, when you say some people wanted to run, and I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, guys, we have to step that was actually me wanting to run. That was me going. That was me going, we have to run. And we have to go fast. We have to go hard. And then I went well, let’s step back. Because it comes down to pennies to see if I can get those purchase orders improved to the investors in the bank so that we can get those large loans. And those I mean, those large purchase orders. There’s no point in building a $250 million plant.

Paul Yeager: Yeah, there’s nobody to buy what you’re you’re doing. That’s right. That’s right. So who is your market, who is buying this product?

Christine Lewington: So our target market is we’re going for the dairy. The dairy, the alternative, like the alternative dairies that confection the the fun brands. So currently, right now, in the industry, if you have a plant based beverage, they classify as an indulgent, it is a sugar based, you know, soy, oat milk, or whatever, it’s sugar based, you’ll have very limited protein in there. Some have upped it with a few different proteins, but it changes the texture, it changes the taste, you know, so when a mom goes into the grocery store, and she wants to buy oat milk, instead of cow’s milk or dairy milk, for whatever reason, the nutritional profile, the dairy milk, just I mean, it’s way better that for, you know, the the nutritional profile than the old milk. But if you level up because that’s the name of our product is up up dot p, if you level up your oat milk with our protein, your protein, your nutritional profile now is greater than the dairy. So we’ve now created a protein that is soluble. So it means it stays dissolved. So it doesn’t separate on the shelf. It doesn’t it smooth, tasty. So when we make our ice cream I made, I’ll divert your eye, we did some ice cream we had. So I said I have to understand our protein works. So we paid this lab. And they went out there great. And they made us some ice cream. They made some bars, all these different things. And they they sent me the bill for the the ice cream and I saw you know at this stuff, okay, let’s just make a whole bunch of it. It was $9,000 at the end of the day for six little containers. Ouch. But it was the most amazing stuff ever. And it’s smooth that melts like ice cream. So the dairy is really where we’re going we have a cheese spread the alternative meats, the you know the the burgers and everything else are proteins, absolutely. They can go in there. But we don’t need to be masked, our proteins are very there, there’s no taste to them. So they will take on the taste around. So we don’t have that off taste that bitter taste and the you know, the sausages and the burgers and those things. They actually have so many ingredients in them that they can mask it that way. So that’s not our target market. We have been approached by some of them but that’s not really our target market.

Paul Yeager: You have to understand a little bit about the Market to Market television show. I have a big audience that is, they are, they are in and curious about the price of beef and live cattle and the corn to feed it and they have a wary eye when whenever we mentioned plant based anything they see that as competition. Are you competition to the feedlots?

Christine Lewington: No, this is a he’ll probably kill me for saying it. But he’s in Canada and you don’t know him. So my very first investor that struck me $100,000 check, has owns five feedlots. And he was just in here last night watching you know, he came on in and we are not competition to it. All of my starch and fiber and my you know, off runs on my proteins are going to his cows. His baby cows are loving it. And then there’s a pig farm right beside them and their little piglets are loving it. So my off products are going to the feed in the feedlot industry right now. But there’s not enough protein in the world. to feed our children. So I was speaking with someone at Goldman Sachs. And they gave me some stats of how many children in the world go daily without one gram of protein. And so if I can take my pea protein, and I could put it in 30 grams single serving, that that single serving is the cost of that is is pennies. And you can put it on a pallet, you can ship it, so we aren’t competition because I don’t need to be where the cows are. And I, I, I’m not vegan. I’m not vegan, I was raised in Southern Alberta, I know how to cook a good steak, I’m not against vegans, we, we actually had this great consultant, and she’s full vegan. And she said something to me, she had some of our products and she goes, you know, in the vegan world, there’s edible and non edible. I went, what she goes, it’s edible and non edible. She says this is going to make our products enjoyable. And that was such a big aha moment for all of us in our team. And me also understanding the vegan consumer and the flexitarian consumer wanting to change and integrate this into their diet. And that’s where my position is, is. You know, my mom always raised me saying too much of something is maybe too much. You know, and so I’m more flexitarian if you want to eat me eat me if you want to, you know, I think we need to be more responsible with how we treat our animals. 1,000%. But this were not competition to them. I couldn’t wipe out the and I wouldn’t want to wipe out that industry whatsoever. So I don’t think I can do that.

Paul Yeager: Flexitarian as you said it again, you said it twice. Does that mean that I’m someone who can enjoy a pork cut, but I also enjoy a plant based something or other? Is that what you’re saying? 

Christine Lewington: Oh yeah, you might sit there and you might have pork chop with some potatoes and then have a plant based ice cream for dessert. Okay, no, flexitarian

Paul Yeager: I’m pretty sure you’ve just I now have a new term to share with my wife. That’s what she is. She’s Yeah, that’s much closer to saying, Oh, I don’t eat this or eat this. But I eat that. So okay, yeah. Love it. All right. So not a competition to the producer because one of the outflows of or the I guess, but we call it byproducts of the ethanol businesses, the dried distillers grain that goes to livestock. So how sounds like your product? What was that product being used for? What did you call it the off product?

Christine Lewington: Their byproducts? So yeah,

Paul Yeager: what was it being used before you figured out the livestock? Where was it going?

Christine Lewington: I always figured out the livestock because I’ve got up here. So that is one of the barriers to entry into this market of what I’m doing is because a pea is 25% protein for easy terms 75%, starch and fiber. That’s a lot of starch and fiber. So where do you get rid of that starch and fiber, and to dry, it takes a lot of energy, you know, in the packaging and everything else. So you now have this whole system where you have to sell starch fiber. And I said, we will focus on making the best pea protein in the world. And the starch and fiber, I’ll get to it, because I always knew my feedlot investor would take it all so and so when let’s say we like we had a bad Ron, last Thursday, we were trying out some new funky stuff. And so the protein came out, okay, we’re not going to be getting rid of that. So we sent that to the cows, right. So that’s what I mean by that. But the exciting thing is we are actually going to be partnering with a company in the United States who has an innovative innovation. And then we’re going to take our starch and fiber, right from our line, our pea protein is coming down one way and our starch, some fibers going down the other and it’s going to go and mixed with their innovation. And we’re going to make plant based packaging. So on a one door is going to go our protein and out the other door we’re going to go out you know the takeout containers for McDonald’s and things like it’s going to make those so we are fully vertically integrated inside our facility I’m going to use the energy is going to be minimal. I don’t have to dry starch and fiber just get them in a transport truck. And everything goes out and is ready to go to consumer so we’re going to be doing it we’re doing it much different.

Paul Yeager: That’s the That’s the old meat processing thing. That’s everything but the squeal you’ve processed.

Christine Lewington: exactly, that’s it well we’re actually even using the hulls we’re going to be milling around and we’re taking the hulls so we’re putting the halls inside for the Pea Pro for the for the packaging or we can burn the halls in our innovative energy crate. So yeah, everything.

Paul Yeager: I love the optimism of everything and everything can be used. I love it. I want to ask about finish up here with the product itself that’s grown I think you said somewhere around maybe 300,000 acres you have a somebody that grows peas for you. Where do you see expansion? Are there enough acres to to elbow out over whether it’s wheat or barley or oats or corn? Under soybeans wherever it is to find more places to grow more peas if and when the market keeps growing.

Christine Lewington: So this is the exciting thing. Canada exports 90 – 95% of our peas. And a bulk of that is for animal feed in other countries. So I, for me to find peace to process for value added and to provide contracts to the farmers is it’s not it’s not difficult. Here’s the fun thing, though, I don’t need to find more acres pea the peas that grow anywhere, they’re non- GMO, and they fix the soil, their nitrogen fixing they provide nitrogen back into the soil. And because I’m creating a market for it, where I can provide contracts, the farmers can now finally have a cash crop instead of a rotation crop. So right now they’ll go, you know, they’ll go canola, they’ll go barley, barley, or you know, canola, and then they’re like, we’re gonna have to put peas in to fix the soil. So they put fees in and they hope that they break even on it, because the cost, there’s no real market for it. And then the next year, they usually always go granola because the piece fix in the next crop that follows peas is like a, you know, it’s just a game day, it’s awesome. So we have no problem getting more acres, but we don’t need more acres, they’re already rotating with it. Now what we just get to do is value add to those farmers finally, and encourage them to rotate more often, which will therefore fix the crop rotation and the soil. So it’s a perfect crop where it’s hearty it can grow in Canada. It I have that when on my side.

Paul Yeager: Yeah. You’ve thought of a lot of this stuff. What do you see, you know, in two years, where are we talking from? Are you in some big office that has 500 people working for you? Or more?

Christine Lewington: Well, no, I hope not. But three kilometers down the road, the 20 acres that I started out with, we’re going to start construction again, this may, I’m going to start it back up. And we hope to be commissioned in late 2024. And we will have the largest pea processing facility in the world. And so I hope to be sitting in an office there with no more than 120 people. Because we don’t have a lot of people in Canada remember, and making the best protein and getting the getting the message out there. And really focused on that.

Paul Yeager: Oh, I love it. Christine, thank you so much for fitting me and I know you’ve as the as the CEO, you got a lot of things to spin at one time. So I appreciate you for fitting us in today.

Christine Lewington: I appreciate the interview. Thank you and say hi to your wife, your new flexitarian wife. Thank you. Thanks. Have a good day.

Paul Yeager: Thanks to Christine Lewington for today’s discussion. Hear New episodes come out each and every Tuesday from the MtoM Show podcast. Thanks for watching or listening or reading our transcript. We’ll see you next time.